Levi Hawken - Contemporary sculptor

Levi Hawken is a brutalist | modernist sculptor living and working in west Auckland. His practice includes sculpture in concrete, glass, wood and bronze as well as painting.

As a skateboarder, Levi understands the undeniable attraction of the urban concrete landscape. His work responds to the forms and elements of this environment.

In this very authentic conversation Levi takes us through his extraordinary life from early graffiti days and his world of skating to his appearances on TV and in film and the Nek Minute meme that made him famous, although not necessarily for all the right reasons. He speaks from the heart about experiences in his life that have affected the person he is, the way he works today and the art he makes. 

We discuss Levi's early work, how his first show came about and how he built his reputation as a serious artist. We talk about his current work the False Idols series and the Solv series and how his work is inextricably intertwined with skateboarding and urban forms. Levi describes the ideas behind his work and his process for making and how he feels about showcasing his work in a more commercial environment.

This is an amazing story which will inspire young and old, giving you a true insight into the person and artist that is Levi Hawken.




TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Welcome and Introductions

02:34 Childhood Memories and Early Influences

04:11 High School Art Journey

06:10 Discovering Graffiti and Skateboarding

09:10 Pursuing Art and Skateboarding in Melbourne

13:07 Transition to Professional Art and Design

27:08 Life in Dunedin and Artistic Evolution

45:27 The Impact of the 'Neck Minute' Meme

52:37 Freestyling Shapes and Downhill Skateboarding

53:24 Exploring Helmet Designs and Aero Helmets

53:46 Collaborations and Exhibitions

54:35 Landscaping and Concrete Sculptures

55:47 Discovering Brutalism and Smaller Works

56:25 Buffable Show and Permanent Art

57:04 Challenges in the Art World

58:39 Transition to Full-Time Artist

59:19 Experimenting with Glass and Bronze

01:02:10 Architectural Influences and Brutalism

01:05:54 Urban Environment and Skateboarding Influence

01:14:05 Large Scale Projects and Problem Solving

01:23:32 Commercial Success and International Reach

01:31:01 Reflections and Future Aspirations

01:40:56 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Hi Levi. 

Hi Mandy. 

Lovely to see you. 

Thank you for having me. 

Thank you for being on the podcast. It's really exciting to have you here and we met very briefly. last night at an opening at Black Door Gallery, so that was nice to cross paths before we actually meet to have a chat.

Thank you very much for coming all the way out to Muriwai with your lovely dog, Lemmy. Is it Lemmy? Lemmy, yeah. 

Yeah. Very excited to hear your story. You were born in 1975 in Auckland. Yes. Yeah. What were you like as a child? The big question. 

Yeah, I was born in Glen Innes, but then we moved to the Waitakere.

So I spent my first few years out near Bethel's and spent a lot of time at the beach. And and then we moved to Herne Bay the Grey Lynn side, which was a bit more. Multicultural. 

That area has changed a lot, hasn't it? In those years? It's changed 

a huge amount. I as a small kid like we had, we were just surrounded by artists and musicians and things like the artist Derek Cowie lived across the road and so like he used to do like I had a drawing of my little plastic trike.

And stuff that he'd drawn like a real life one. And he also made this pole that a wooden pole that was painted with like spirals and when you'd spin it, that'll go to the center And yeah, it was, it was an amazing place to grow up. I went to Bayfield primary. We did a lot of art that was like, I remember making like my first masks.

Like I've still got a clay mask that I made when I was six. And it's amazing looking at something like that and like just going, where, what was I thinking? Like, how did I, And 

the fact that it's, is connected to what you're doing now. 

Yeah, totally. Totally. Signing. And then Ponsonby Intermediate and yeah, and then I went I traveled to Selwyn because I heard that they had a good art department and you're also allowed to skate at school.

Oh, really? 

That would have been a big factor, I imagine. 

Yeah, it was. Yeah, it really was. Yeah. 

So how did you find art in high school? 

It was cool. Like I, I was really lucky To have Angela Fraser as a teacher. And so we did a lot of printmaking and and she taught us a lot about we did multi art.

Like we go to the museum and draw tickies and Poe and stuff. And there was, like a, I remember her teaching us to you start with a sketch and then you can keep going over it and even if. Drawing that you think's bad like you can keep going over it and then also like you can Scrape it back as well and go back into it.

Which were things that I definitely Explored in my painting. Someone was really good like in the photography department was good. So I did I did painting photography. Art history like right up to I was there till seventh form and 

And tech drawing. 

Tech drawing, yeah Tech drawing was good, but I think I, like when you fail at something not fail, but I remember they had in tech drawing, they had a logo competition, and I always thought of myself as like a logo designer, like that was what I wanted to do, and they had like a competition for like cooks plumbing, and and everyone in the class, they would Came up with, their logos or whatever.

And I just remember like losing it and like this real geeky dude, like real straight dude, like he won it. And I think like they still use his logo today. And yeah. And so I think that kind of, I don't know, like I was very easily discouraged and I think like even getting like a, only getting 48 percent for for painting and seventh form, kind of crushed me a little bit. And I think that really pushed me away. Like I I stayed away from the from like schools and, institutions. Yeah. Yeah. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah. And I 

can imagine, it is so sad to me that.

Something like that, which is judged by a whole bunch of whoever's, can influence where you end up going in your life, just from something like that. And so it can be so discouraging for school kids. 

Yeah, totally. And and I think for me, like I was, Because I grew up so close to the city and got into skateboarding and there was no skate parks, so I would skate to the city and we had no money, so yeah I'd skate to the city, skate in the city at Altair Square on Terry Stringer's Monument and we'd go to at the university, which is all brutalist buildings and the med school, which was just an amazing brutalist building.

Every landscaped it now, but skateboarding really changed. It was really strong fashion and the clothing, like really baggy clothes, and there was a lot of folds and things and chunky shoes with fat laces and which also corresponded with Graffiti characters and they were really chunky and and I, cause I did, I like drawing people and stuff.

And I, so for my final year, I drew I did all these drawings with like faceless sort of figures, like our August Mackey, the German Expressionist. And similar colours because I was heavily inspired by them. And and so all my drawings were of like skateboarders hanging out at Altair Square.

And it had like the buildings in the background and emotions I guess. And it was really, skateboarding wasn't cool anymore. And so you were an outcast and so you'd hang out in the city and it was often like in winter, I'd be the only, I'd be skating at Aotea square by myself, or there'd be like a few other people.

And so I did all these drawings of that and and paintings and I didn't have like maybe the technical skills. Which is which was, maybe was, didn't work out great, but 

But at least you were telling your story, which not all students were. 

And I didn't know how to explain it, I don't think, at the time just not being like, I've always been a little bit sort of ADD, yeah, not, Very creative, but just not the best at English and but so yeah I did all these drawings and it was just, and it was, there was so much feeling in them and so much, like it was so important to me and it was like our subculture that was so new and evolving.

And I think like it was an insult to me to only get. Yeah. And, 

and it's such a, it was such a personal thing that you were responding to. 

Yeah, absolutely. And and yeah, so I've, so when school finished, it was and to be honest, like my dad wanted me to go to art school and my mom, who's very practical, was like, she was like, why do you want to spend all that money going to art school?

Like you'll get out of, you'll have a degree and you'll have a, student debt and you still won't be able to get a job. And so I was like, okay, so I just, yeah, I just I went overseas for six months to Australia and just traveled around and just was just went out there in the world and had never flattered before or anything and never really had, I'd had jobs, but not like I'd never had to look in the newspaper to get a job, but it always been through someone.

So I think that was like a really cool like going to Melbourne in 94 and seeing their train lines was Just mind blowing it was like it's not like Australia's, New York Because when I was doing art at school like I just with the skateboarding culture and hip hop It all the graphics and things and all the clothes and Boards had become very graffiti and hip hop orientated.

So I'd gotten into doing that and drawing all the lettering and but I didn't really see this, see myself going out and doing it. But but then when I came back from Australia, after seeing it all over there and then coming back to New Zealand and seeing that there was. I don't think I've been looking hard before, but I started looking on the train lines and looking and then I was like discovering that it was happening here too.

And there are a lot of guys like Aaron B and Merkster and who were just doing like really amazing pieces. And and I just went, Oh, wow. And also there was different sorts of spray paint that had more control and you'd see instead of just seeing like tags on the street that were hairy black cans, VHTs or something from the garage, they were like getting expensive shoe paint.

And with nice caps that sort of The line would come out in like a translucent tube. And so the lettering would be like three dimensional spaghetti, and which was just like, it was easy enough to just fall in love with that as a tool, as a aesthetic and yeah, so I think that's where it where I started just going, Oh, I don't.

If I'm not going to art school and, and high school didn't appreciate what I was doing, I'm just going to go the opposite way. And and yeah, I started doing pieces and And was 

the graffiti what do you call it when it's not illegal sort of graffiti on walls at that point?

Yeah. Yeah. Which is how so 

many graffiti artists start, 

yeah. I, I guess if there'd been laws back in the day, like cavemen would have been doing illegal graffiti in caves. 

Yeah. True. That's so 

true. It's it's quite a funny context when you think about it because yeah, it's just, it is just lettering and it's language and it's hieroglyphics.

It's Yeah, it's I find it hard when people get stuck in the context of, graffiti looking a certain way. And so I, and that's something that I really, when I started doing graffiti, I was already like, I just wanted to try and do abstract, like my own unique style.

So they can't, it came out really ugly. Really? Because it's so much, people, you can draw some lettering or something on A page is very easy, but you try and draw it like the height of you on a wall with a spray can, which is, 

it's a whole new technique, isn't it? 

There was a lot of techniques.

Yeah. And you're teaching yourself on the streets basically. 

Yeah, absolutely. And so I so I went in and I started doing that and and I did. I did that and I was always trying to do, emulate sort of New York style, wild style graffiti and there was a guy called Giant who was did a lot, was largely in San Francisco, and I loved his work and, so I was trying to emulate that and plus the local guys like Merxer and R& B and it was cool back then because it was so hard to find.

Like the magazines or it's like you'd get a magazine, like every time the source magazine would come out, it had one page of graffiti and that was like your only connection to the outside, that and like the subway art book from the eighties. So it was, it allowed us a lot of.

freedom to make up our own stuff rather than copying a subculture completely. 

Yeah. 

And so that was super fun. And then I actually got a job for a summer working for a sign company. Because I was trying to find where I what I was going to do for work. What, and we And we installed the, they changed the font on the Air New Zealand building downtown.

And and I got, I was lucky enough to go up on that. And so I was working on top of a 27 story building in I think 1996. And carrying these massive letters up and down stairs, like these big sort of aluminium powder coated letters. And and I also spent time stripping all the fittings off the old font, which was that cool sort of 70s teal green.

Yes. Yeah. I remember. 

And they were huge. It was like, so then I actually, because I was always trying to be quite abstract and stuff, I actually went back to really basic letter forms and started doing these sort of Logo style things pieces that my friend called the Crayola style because it looked like it was on the side of a Crayola crayon just very circular and lines and stuff.

And so I took it back to that and then did a whole bunch of that and then went. And then brought the abstraction back in. And then I started getting all these like cool rectangles and curves and and really interlocking the forms. And I wasn't super into drawing things in 3d, but I liked the way that if you had one piece that was one color and then another piece, if you had a yellow and then an orange going behind a, another color.

It almost suggested that the yellow became orange after it had gone through that 

colour. 

And so I really I don't know, I think that really got my brain working and things started to click together a lot more. Were you taking 

those ideas and those designs onto the street at that stage?

Yeah. I was a good kid. Like I didn't, I didn't do a lot of, I wasn't like a cut out criminal or anything. So I but I really like the train lines because the train lines that kind of felt like you're just going over tags and yeah It was so cool back in the 90s because trains didn't run on Sundays.

And, springtime on the train tracks, walking up through Parnell, Newmarket and also the city was going through a change of from factories. All the factories in the inner areas were disappearing Yeah, like the flower factory in Fort Street. You had the margarine factory in Newmarket the courthouse, which is a metropolis now, 

yeah, 

there are a lot of these sort of like playgrounds that were just like these abandoned playgrounds that we'd go exploring and and, but like springtime on the train tracks, it was like, sweet peas and, nasturtiums and all these beautiful flowers and then there was like pieces and sometimes the colors would like, you'd do a piece and then realize that they match the flowers.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. So so it was, that was quite a fun time and and so I really evolved, but I started going off spray paint. Like I, I liked the idea of Everything that you used was what you found. So I started using a lot of recycled house paint and stuff.

And I also, I didn't like the fumes from spray paint. And and it seemed really wasteful. Like it just seemed they manufacture this thing and it just seemed a lot more wasteful than making like a tin of paint. 

Yeah. 

It didn't go as far. And and I also, I don't know like I said, like I, I think it was like when I started getting into those more simpler forms after doing the sign stuff that I went I don't want my stuff to look like New York.

wild style, like I want it to look like my style. And so then I started, yeah, like I started getting house paint and stuff and using paint brushes and mini rollers and and started blocking out quite large areas of wall and also, yeah, just trying to like, go bigger and And get more coverage 

And refining your technique, do you think?

Yeah, and it's it's started looking more rustic and more like a painting than than graffiti. 

And those jobs were still under? Undercover, like they weren't actually paid jobs at that stage. No, 

there were a certain amount of walls around the city. The top of Simon street, like around that area, there was a lot of walls and like I said, there was a lot of abandoned buildings that were just waiting to be knocked down.

You didn't, you were like, it was cool. Like you'd go into a abandoned building and paint a wall in a room. That only someone who went in there exploring would find 

yeah, 

so it was like a treasure hunt You know, 

and it's so different in those days without Instagram and you're not recording That in the same way that you might now 

know I mean we I mean there's some of our best stuff like we didn't even have cameras, like it would be like or someone else might have a camera or we used to went through a lot of disposable cameras and And yeah, like a lot of it's just lost to, whereas now like it's instantly done.

It's recorded. And were you working with a bit of a group or like a bit of a team at that stage? 

Yeah. You you have, I had other people that I was doing it with, but I, my work, my style often didn't fit with other peoples because their stuff would be more graffiti style. And then my stuff would be blocky sort of Cubist style. 

More geometric. 

Yeah, and Which I also found very hard with spray paint was doing, If I was trying to do straight, parallel lines, or, perfect big lines. Curves like a semi circle or something like a quarter circle. I found it really hard with spray paint Whereas like with a paintbrush I could I could do it a lot more easily but we thought that We thought you'd like you weren't allowed to measure things out and you weren't everything had to be like eyeballed and done First time with a spray can and it was very there were like rules like you had to have good can control and you weren't allowed to mask anything and like we didn't realize that all these people were masking things and all these guys that we looked up to because like I said we didn't have any connection to overseas writers and there were sorry a writer is a graffiti artist because they write their name usually so yeah it was we just were like We'd made up all these rules and you weren't allowed to copy anyone and which was very hard because you put so much pressure on yourself We didn't realize that you could be influenced You're allowed to be influenced by people and you're allowed to emulate What they're doing or try what they were doing and then do your own twist on it, 

yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it?

And then I guess You know at that stage you had your skateboarding and You were skating a lot and that was, running alongside your art making. Were you thinking, I want to be an artist, I'm working, I'm on my way to eventually becoming an artist? Or did you think of yourself as an artist as soon as you started making?

No in high school I also, with the whole skate fashion, it was hard to get baggy jeans. And my mum sewed and sold clothes at Cook Street Market back in the day. And and so she taught me to sew and so I started making my own jeans. And and so I came up with my own little label and Never did anything with it, but it was like I, I wanted to create a skate brand or a clothing brand.

And so I I ended up, but I was also so driven by skateboarding. That was my thing. So it was like I would wash dishes or paint houses or do whatever job that I could, which kind of didn't. Oh my. thought and creativity was directed into skateboarding and painting. And so it was that just facilitated and also facilitated going back to Melbourne and going and skating over there and and seeing the art over there.

And there were, there was some really influential like artists over there a guy called murder who, is like arguably the first person to do three dimensional graffiti which was, graffiti that actually was looked sculptural on a wall. So he was a huge influence on me and And yeah, I was just doing that.

And then I wanted to work because I skated for Boom Skateboards, which was owned by Frank Edwards from Edwards Skateboards and Cheap Skates from back in the day, because I worked in skate shops, like growing, like in my teen years. And then 

Were they sponsoring you as a skater? 

Yeah they did eventually, but I wasn't actually good enough.

And I didn't. I, but I just hassled them and hung out there every weekend and after school until and was serving customers until they gave in and gave me a job. And and then, yeah, and then I wanted to be on the team so bad, but I wasn't good enough. And then I got I got fourth in the open street at the nationals when I was 15.

And so I got started getting free stuff and And yeah and then, Yeah, so I was working at Cheapskates a little bit, out the back they never They wouldn't give me a job in the actual store I worked at Blue Tile Lounge before that, which was down the road, But that was a bit more alternative, and so it was But I felt like it was a bit too straight laced, And I was a bit too, unusual or something, I don't know to work seven customers.

So I felt like I got pushed out the back, like putting together rollerblades and skateboards and and then boom, skateboards started which was the nineties hip hop, graffiti, inspired version of Edward skateboards. And of course, yeah, my dream was to design clothes and graphics for them.

And so yeah, and then but I kept and then so I went back to Melbourne in 97 and was back and forth and skateboarding and washing dishes and painting and And then in 1999, I think two of the guys from Boom quit, like the main guys. And I got offered the position of doing graphics and and the clothing designs.

Wow. 

That's amazing. 

Yeah, so I got thrown in the deep end. I had one week with the guy who was doing it before and I'd never used Illustrator before or Photoshop or I was all just hand hands on and yeah. And so I yeah, it was ridiculous really But that was your 

dream, wasn't it?

That's what you were hoping for. That was 

my dream and it was like and so yeah, like over the next few years I I Yeah, I learned How to produce clothing like, spec sheets and using Illustrator and all that and I Yeah, so that was, and so that was, so I fulfilled that dream, but but it was very limiting.

Because like when they first, like when they first started, it was cool. Cause there wasn't, because skateboarding had been so dead and it was so new, the style of skateboarding. Boom was like the only New Zealand company, but then everyone who left Boom started their own companies, and and and then you also had all these other American companies started making things under license in other countries.

So there was all this cheap product coming in, Which had all this labeling, like it was made in China, so it just had all the finishing labeling tags, everything. And for us to make a pair of jeans that had like original labels and rivets and all that stuff was it would cost so much money. 

Expensive.

Yeah. 

Yeah. And so you were there were all these restrictions. And and then there was also like, the boss would be coming in and going, oh, I'd be like, I'm into, I was really into work wear, and I, to me, work wear and army clothes and hunting gear is where street wear sort of skateboard street wear came from.

And so I was on that thing and then I was like, Oh no, like it's tight jeans and skulls are trendy now. Start making those. We have to do that. We have to copy Billabong and we were always it always felt like my boss was if you're copying another brand, you're a year behind.

And so you need to be ahead. So I but I stayed with working for Frank and Boom and Cheap Skates and yeah. I worked in, I managed skate shops. 

At that point, were you thinking, okay, this is good. This is what I was hoping for alongside my skating.

What were you thinking was your art practice? 

The art practice was, I don't know, it was just like there on the side. Like it was just something that I I just loved doing it and it was and I liked the fact that there were no rules. And I think that was what really appealed to me after school was the fact that Painting walls and stuff.

It was, there were no rules. Like you could just do whatever you wanted. And whenever I started being confronted by like I said, there were like rules and graffiti and then it was like, okay, I'm going to break these, like these are not, I'm not gonna, and so yeah, it just kept going like that.

And then, there were times when I would skate more and there's times when I would paint more and there was, but then, yeah, and then I just got, I got burnt out on the whole the whole skateboard industry, also the politics and it's very, when you're in New Zealand, it's, you've got a small population, you've got a small market.

And so people end up trying to cut each other off and And when that comes into skateboarding as well, it ruins the fun. And so I went back to Melbourne and I I'd evolved, I'd created a new style. Because I stopped writing my old tag and I started writing my name. Levi, because I was like, it's me.

It's who I am. It's 

yeah. 

And I liked the fact that it was four letters and I liked the shape of the letters because they're a little bit more geometric than my other letters that I've been using. And and yeah. And then I started, I came up with this idea of each letter saying Levi as well.

So I was cutting up each letter. So had All four letters in it. I called it a five style. So it was like, it said my name five times. And yeah, and so that really and that was when I learned, I was like, oh wow, like it's like an algorithm or it's like a, like a reason for abstracting something or like a program.

And 

so when I went to Melbourne, I started doing that. And then I and then I started, I met like Murder and started hanging out with him a little bit and talking with him about stuff. And I really, and I was like, Oh, I said, I love your 3d stuff. I want to do it, but I don't want to do what you're doing.

Like I don't want to copy. I said, I'm going to make up my own, I'm going to make up my own style of 3d. And then I think that kind of set me on. a new path. Yeah. But and from there I went to London and was there for six months and worked in a bar in Shoreditch, which was where Banksy and Ayn, Ayn Signs and I met Mode Two and only once, but, and I didn't meet Banksy or anything, but I knew that he was around.

You might have met him, but you didn't know. Yeah. Apparently my cousin was going out with him, but she wouldn't. 

Oh really? 

She wouldn't tell me anything. But but yeah, so I but in London to survive there, it's like you just, you spend the whole time working, and, oh, I wasn't working actually but yeah, and and I went to Italy, I went to Florence and because my dad had always said that I had to go to Florence and and see Brunelischi's Santa Maria del Fiore, the Duomo so I went there by myself and just wandered, wandered around, Florence, just going up into the hills, up to the Fort Belvedere and Boboli Gardens.

And there was like the big sculptures there. And yeah, I just spent five days by myself. Just thinking, exploring and 

and feeling inspired. 

Yeah. And then I and then I went. I went back to, I went to go back to London and they wouldn't let me in. So I got sent back to New Zealand and which I was relieved about because London is just so exhausting and it just feels like it's the last place you'd want to be if anything went down. 

Yeah, so true. And getting back to New Zealand, when you're away from New Zealand, you just, it just feels like such a paradise, doesn't it? 

Yeah totally. And I also, I'd started working doing a lot of labouring jobs, like for events companies and then coming back to New Zealand I I didn't know what to do as I needed money.

I, my brother in law was landscaping, so he got me a job landscaping. So I started doing that and then I and I was still painting and on the side and skating and but also like I started And then I know I'd started getting really into skating down hills because after living places where there were no hills like Melbourne and London, I just was like, Oh my God, I'm home.

I'm going to go bomb queen street, and so I started really getting back into that and also I was getting older and I was just finding it, everyone was into filming tricks and. that sit around for hours waiting for someone to land something and I was like, I just want to skate.

I just want to go, so yes, I was getting into that and then and working hard and and, and I'd always like sitting at Altair Square. I'd always imagined skate parks being like Altair Square, like a landscaped space with sculpture and stuff that you could interact with.

And and so when I was getting into land, when I was landscaping, I was like thinking about, spaces and how you can take a space that doesn't work and turn it into a space that does work. And I always had dreams and ideas, but just didn't really know how to implement them or how to start.

And I didn't realize that I was actually starting. And and so yeah, I landscaped for a while and then I house painted for a while and said house painted before and like house painting was great because I was getting access to all this old paint this guy I worked with painted the inside of the Pelican club.

If those people don't know, it's a brothel in Newton and and they, and he had all these bright colors and so I got all these bright colored paintings and that was bright colored paint and and some quite sort of earthy colors too, ochre yellows and burgundy reds and and past and then, so I was getting pastels as well.

So I started, and that was when I first built some big frames and stretched some canvas and and I did these big paintings And it was all with like leftover house paint and and paint from the Pelican Club. 

You could have got some good titles out of that. 

Yeah. Yeah. I, and so that was like a, that was quite a cool period.

And then with the getting into skating hills and then, and stuff, and and then I went I worked for my stepdad was a carpenter, so I was, when I was growing up, always worked on building sites, like cleaning up. And so I went and worked for him for a bit. And then I decided I went down to Dunedin for I had a, like a Halloween skate event called Halloween where everyone gets dressed up and skates downhills.

And and I just, you I fell in love with the place and just the hills and the old buildings. And I felt Auckland had all the abandoned buildings have been knocked down and it was all this ugly new stuff had been built and that they'd painted everything gray when like they had APEC, the APEC summit, like they cleaned up everything.

And it just you I don't know, it just felt and then, and they also at that time they demolished Altair Square, which was like my love, yeah, 

such a shame. And then I guess they also started all that making it inaccessible for skaters to skate around the city.

Yeah. Yeah, they that had already been happening for quite a bit of time. Then there was also, there was an initiative to. incorporate skateboarding into the new architecture. I had an Auckland skate strategy, which, yeah which was quite interesting, but the sentiment was there, but it was very hard to, for the councillors to get their idea around creating architecture that was actually Intended to be skated as well because I used to skate downhills by myself usually.

And and then I went down there and there were a few other people, there are other people who wanted to skate downhills. And and I just and I was like, oh man, it's so cool down here. I'd love to move down here. And they were like, why don't you? And I was like, and then I went back to Auckland.

I was like, why don't I? And and a lot of the people that I'd been, associated, affiliated with had, I don't know, it was, there was a lot of partying and stuff and, and there was like, there was a lot of drugs that sort of infiltrated into Auckland in the 2000s and like a lot of meth.

And so a lot of people went downhill and I and I drank a lot and I I just, I had to get out of Auckland. I just felt like I needed to get away because it wasn't healthy. And and yeah, so I moved to Dunedin. I just packed up and crated up my dog and we flew to Dunedin.

And that was when I I don't know, like I, I've spent a lot of time hanging out. There's a building called the Dowling Street Staircase in Dunedin. And it's this sort of strange, brutalist building that serves no other purpose than it's a staircase that comes down from the cliff. I think it was originally like a big, the rock used to go right down through George Street and the prisoners like had to like, Hammer it away and and then they built this sort of big concrete staircase and so I think that was when I really, I know that really I fell in love with that piece.

And it feels 

like some of the work you've done has responded to that. 

Yeah, that and like a lot of the old houses down there, like there's I can't It's like an old house you can go in there do tours of it and stuff But but I started like adapting the shapes from the buildings and stuff into my work even more and and also and logos and symbols and stuff and I and it was like The internet was kicking in.

I remembered like watching this It was like a TED talk and this guy was talking about. Magical symbols, sigils, and talking about writing down affirmations and then taking the letters and combining them together into a symbol. And it was like a made, and you put it on your door and it's like good luck or something.

So yes, I started thinking about the letters and my name as symbols of a like magical symbols. I don't necessarily believe in it, but I just thought it was a cool concept. Yeah. 

And that, that also comes through into your work now, doesn't it? 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. And, and 

what year was that, Levi? 

That would have been 2000. I moved there in it was like Christmas no Boxing Day, 2009. Okay. So just before 2010. And, yeah. And then I was in. Dunedin for two years and I and like I got, I actually got, cause I'd put out a hillbombing video. I basically skated down.

Oh God. So many stories. It's so long. But my friend Joe Griffin, who's a amazing photographer before I moved to Dunedin, he wanted to document me skating down all the hills in Auckland because I'd started getting quite. full on. And so we did this video, he was at Elim and he did his end of Elim assignment.

He took these photos of me, like portraits of me. And he had like his grandfather who was almost dying. And it was, I think his concept was the concept of death and someone who is like the end of their life and is going to die and someone who's young, but.

And you're on the edge of death potentially kind of thing. 

Yeah. Yeah, totally. So we filmed all these like crazy hill bombs and it pushed me to skate down Liverpool street, which was the steep street runs parallel to Queen street. And so we filmed all that. And so he had that like playing, so I didn't go to art school, but.

Me skateboarding down hills was on a big screen in Elim, so 

How amazing! 

And big photos, life size photos of me and my dog and, And 

so nice for you to have those images 

yeah From 

that time, 

Yeah, totally And then, and that kind of went semi viral, like it got I don't know, 180, 000 views or something It got picked up by Hypebeast like a real trendy website posted it and and then it was on Thrasher magazine in America, like they posted it and they had a hillbombing competition video competition.

I was well known for skating down hills because if you caught a bus up queen street, then you probably would have seen me skate past. Rochelle and. And yeah, so I, but so because of that video, when I was contacted by this woman, Charlotte from who was doing 2020, and she wanted to do a story about me, about my hill skating and my art and also about my genetic condition and They it ended up, they really wanted to go into this sort of like bullying thing.

And but it was quite a, it was, it was quite a cool story. And so yeah, they filmed me in my studio with these a room in the house, like these big paintings. And I also had, I got all this paint donated by Resene because I was like painting at the skate park and you're like doing pieces at the skate park and over all the tagging and stuff. And so I got like a hundred liters of gray paint and a whole lot of other paint. And there was like this big, And the Leith River. And it was amazing. It was like, there were quite a few graffiti artists to come out of Dunedin, but that all, they all move away.

And so it was like everyone had gone and it was just a little bit like ghost town. And there was just so many walls. And I was like, wow, like this place is just amazing. I've got so many places I can paint 

blank canvas. 

Yeah. And so I painted like 50 meters of a concrete wall in the Leith River underneath the, like a tunnel underneath the Botanical Gardens.

And yeah, I painted it grey and like I went down there just on and off for six months and just painted this big grey, just, piece after piece of my name with these symbols and and stuff. 

And that was with quite a fine line black over the grey, is that the one? 

Yeah, I actually, Because I was like working it out and I, I still had these stupid rules in my head where I was like, you're not allowed to use masking tape.

Like that's cheating. So I was like, I painted the whole wall gray and it was so like old concrete and it just soaked it up. So it took a long time. I think I had to do two coats and then I and then I just started doing The outlines with spray paint. And then I was cutting it back over the top on both sides of each line with a brush and it was like, so time consuming and, but because no one, if I did that in Auckland, I'd start it one day and then come down and someone would have gone over it, but because there was just nothing happening there.

It was like, I don't know. Like I worked on that for six months and just and it was right through the middle of winter. So I'd go down there and have to wear five t shirts, two hoodies and like gloves. And 

And was that wasn't a paid job? 

No. It was 

so devoted really, weren't you?

Yeah. Yeah. And it was, but it was like, yeah, it was just, I don't know. I don't know. On a mission to do. What I wanted to do. And 

you're enjoying that large scale. Yeah. 

I love going big and and so they contacted me about doing the 2020 thing and I said I've got this wall that I'm painting that I'll finish like it actually put a deadline for me to finish it.

And so they came down and they filmed me skating down hills and everything. And And then I decided to have an exhibition in the tunnel. So I, it was called the Secret Gutter Exposé. That's 

so cool. Love that. 

So everyone met this cool little bar, this little alleyway bar called Moovery. And so everyone met there and no one knew we were going.

And so then they followed me and we walked. And we, everyone hit, it was like they had to climb down this kind of bank wall thing and try not to fall in the river. And and I had all these, I built all these, made all these big torches, like flaming torches and bought I know about 20 LED torches as well.

And so like I had an exhibition in the river tunnel. 

That is so cool. 

It was, yeah, it was super cool. And and they filmed that for the 2020 thing. And 

that was quite smart. You, it sounds like you were quite entrepreneurial in a way. You were thinking about how you can combine these different talents that you had and get the word out.

Yeah, it just fell into place though. Like it was like I was just doing it and I didn't really, I've never really had a plan. Like you just do what you love and what you want to do. And and yeah, and so they filmed that. And but yeah, and I did I worked a lot with I was really into trying to work with the councils and the development of skate parks and yeah.

And like the future of, and so in Dunedin, it was quite cool. There was a guy called Michael Fiso at the council. And so I worked with him through this, the Craig strong at the skate park payment down there. And and we did like an event where we built all these ramps and I like painted them all gray because at the same time, like Auckland had been like painted gray.

And And I and I stenciled on the, every ramp gray is the new street art because it's like Auckland was just in love with the color gray. And so I was like, okay, if you, if gray is what you want, gray is what you get. And yeah, I was like, if I do graffiti in gray, will you still paint it off?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Will you have to paint it another color? 

Yeah, that's so interesting. 

And yeah, so everything, all those ramps were gray and except for one ramp, which I painted this big sort of mask face on which was cool. And I didn't, yeah, that was the first time I'd painted a big face, but but yeah, I had such a good time down there and I had this Sam had this MC Escher book and I'd always loved MC Escher.

And I went back into MC Escher and I started exploring his repetitive patterns and like trying to decode them because there's there was enough in the book to show you how he did it. Which does 

tie in with the way you were approaching your name and what you were doing with that.

It's almost like fragmenting shapes. 

Yeah. Yeah, totally. So there was, yeah, there was so many little bits and pieces like I often forget about every little thing, that, and, it's you're just studying, that 

was your university. 

Yeah. Yeah. The school of life.

And you can see how all that, all of that, that you did in your life has contributed so much to the practice you have today. 

Yeah, absolutely. And even more because and then obviously like I got famous for the meme which just happened by accident. And the neck minute meme for those people that don't know.

Internationally known. The prime minister talks about me on TV in Australia and stuff. It's yeah. 

That was a big moment, wasn't it? For, in a way for a sort of New Zealand society. It's quite a sort of, it's quite a moment. That everybody connects to or it's quite it's a meme that everybody connects to 

yeah, it's Especially at that time It was very new.

I wonder why it had so much impact 

It was just the right thing at the right time I don't know. It just it was just another one of those things where it just happened. Yeah, and it worked perfectly For me in that, because I'd already done the 2020 documentary and that was on Vimeo. So when people thought that I was just some waster or something from a trailer park or whatever, it was like people were like posting links to that video of my hillbombing of my art of my And yeah, like who I am.

And also about and it talked about being bullied for looking different. And and which the meme was almost like a direct example of that because the abuse and stuff was It was pretty phenomenal. Yeah, and 

that must have been, it's such an interesting moment in your life, because it's, it was very positive for you in a way.

It helped you to become well known, which is probably helping you as an artist, possibly. But then it had such a negative side as well. 

Yeah, it's it, the main thing that it did for me was it gave me income and To have more time and materials to keep painting and keep evolving. It didn't feel like people wanted to let me be more than the funny looking guy off the meme.

I felt there was a lot of that sort of Oh no, you just stay there. Like you just stay there. No, we don't really want to know about your art. We don't really want to know about. 

Which must have been really tough. Yeah, 

at times, but I'd never been recognized for anything before anyway.

So it was like, it was just, for me, it was just like, okay I'm going to see if I can do this. Getting, get money, how much money I can get out of this. Like how is this going to go viral in America? Is it, which would have been, like that I might have a house then, but but it didn't so I just, I and I, I did some stand up comedy.

I did, I just, because I'd done TV and emceed skate comps and Like my whole teens and everything into my twenties. And it was like, I was like, okay I know how to do this. Cause I'd wanted to do TV and stuff. There's so many things that I've done or wanted to do. Like I, I always, I've always envied people who just.

Have one thing that they are really good at and they do it and they just do it really well. I'm like, I've always been like all over the show. Oh, I love this. I love this. I love this. I love this. But the 

great thing about that is it's probably as you get older, it's probably all of those things that you've experienced are coming together and forming the person you are and the artist you are.

And probably you would never have been that interested, especially when you were younger, just having one. One thing that you honed your skills in. 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, so I like I, I did a bunch of TV and I moved back to Auckland because my mum was starting to get like a cognitive brain deterioration and I so I wanted to be near her and I was like flying up to Auckland every week to do TV and interviews and.

Like comedy and so I came back and yeah, I was doing that. And then I I've always been involved in helping people learn to skate. And there wasn't really anyone doing like teaching kids to skate. So when I came back to Auckland, I was like, Oh, maybe I'll do a skate school. So I started I started doing that on the side because I was like doing TV and ads.

And so I did a skate school work for youth town and so had an after school program. Did that for a bit and then but I just found it very hard like being the neck minute guy and kids just expecting me to be like this character that they'd seen on TV. And yeah. And also like I was more into bombing, skating hills than doing flippy board, flippy tricks.

Cause I'm like, I'm like I'm, I was getting old, getting older. And and also my friend Simon Thorpe started like the young gun skate school around the same time. And so when the funding ran out for that skate program, I just, I was like, your skate schools you're younger, you're totally like, that's his thing, his one thing.

And I was like, I'm not going to try and compete. So I, and I'd had enough of just, kids are so hard. 

Yeah, kids are 

hard. 

Like   📍 

just the small wins and the massive losses. And but yeah, so I just, I was like, okay, the TV stuff wasn't happening. It felt like every time that the, they wanted me to do something for TV, it was a little bit more degrading than the time before, or, 

 and it was like, 

and I wanted to do some other comedy stuff and I also realized how hard acting is.

I it's, cause I thought, Oh yeah, I want to get into acting, and then I did a few little things and, It's very hard. The comedians were always like taking the piss out of people or things. And I just, I don't know. I was like I think like I've gone through my life trying things that I thought would be fun and then eliminating them, skate school eliminated, comedy eliminated.

And then I just was like, Oh, I just want to have, a steady income and routine. And so I went back to landscaping. And and I was also, I did an exhibition on Cross Street Timepiece, which was I'd basically condensed my, what were the paintings before Willful Damage in Dunedin The nun gallery.

I just, people found it hard, like a really long, big painting. And logistically, when I try and move them or anything, I was like that was really not good. So I condensed basically my four letters down to one letter or one form which was the. like the sigil, the one letter that said, had all four letters in it.

And so I did timepiece. I made the rule of overlaying the four letters and interlocking them. And then I did that heaps and then I was like, okay, now I'm going to let go. And because I'd done so many forms and shapes and interlocking shapes, I just started freestyling shapes and things and and I'd still like the idea of like masks and faces.

And so I discovered proper downhill skateboarding, not just riding down a steep hill on a normal street board. And so I'd gotten into like longer boards and going down like windy mountain roads and stuff which and you have to wear like a full face helmet and and just the whole concept of your head, I think And protecting your head and how important your head is.

And so I did I started doing designs with a sort of helmet shape and there was, there's and I just, I discovered this whole world of like helmets as well. There's all the aero helmets, like all the different shapes and cause downhill skateboarding adapted aero helmets from skiing and stuff.

And they have like crazy, like Darth Vader sort of shapes. And yeah, so then, so I did the timepiece exhibition. Which were square paintings and I did that with the well known legendary skateboarder from the 80s, Lee Ralph, who's also a woodcarver. And so he did all these beautiful poe that were, his stuff's kind of like less traditional and a little bit more abstract and there's, A lot of his work's quite asymmetrical and he's still, he's an unsung sort of humble person of the art sculpture world that's never being recognized outside of the skate world.

And I did a few little exhibitions with him and another, and Jimmy Kuratoris. who does amazing paintings. So I went back to landscaping and and ended up, I just wanted some money and I ended up doing that for a five years and and through doing that we're doing a lot of concrete formwork and so I was like stripping formwork off concrete stairs and and watching it being built and seeing how it fit together and came apart and so I decided to start taking leftover plywood and stuff home And started cutting it up and I made these cubes like concrete cubes or about knee height with my designs around the outside.

And yes, I made them and made a lot of mistakes and and then was looking online and discovered the from a Canadian artist, David Omimoto, who's a concrete sculptor. And he does brutalist works and architectural, a lot of them. And I saw he'd left like this sort of, there was like an interview and it had some photos of of his molds.

And and that was when I was still like, Oh, wow. Cause I didn't, I was making big things like landscape. style formwork. And then when I saw that he was using foam and and rubber moulds and rubber components and moulds it really just opened up my mind to to making smaller works.

And so I just started experimenting and making making some small things and managed to get like a, arranged together and at the same time I started exploring away from just like the lettering in my forms and shapes and started making things like vents, like brutalist vents, and and urn, like urns and vases and and stuff out of concrete.

And then I had a show with Olivia Leiter when she still had the the space in Onehunga and I did a show called Buffable, which buff is like when they remove graffiti. So it's like to make it in concrete, it felt like it was. You couldn't buff it, yeah, 

and more, more permanent.

Yeah, more permanent. And I'd had part of my concept of doing paintings on canvas and stuff was the fact that they were more permanent because all the work that I'd done over the years, over 20 years or something, was all gone, 

yeah. 

And it just felt like a bit of a stalemate, 

so were you When you started doing that, were you thinking, okay, I've done a lot of making over the years and now I want to have an art practice that has permanence and start showing and really build your life as an artist with a full time practice.

Yeah totally. And it was, but it was very daunting. I just felt I, like I did two painting exhibitions and I sold One thing or maybe a couple of paintings, like I just found it like very Not very welcoming. I didn't feel like I could be recognized, especially for the style of work that I was doing.

And taken seriously. 

Yeah, I just don't think that a lot of people understood it. And as soon as you mentioned the word graffiti, it was Oh no, we hate, can't stand it. Yeah. Oh, it doesn't mean anything, it doesn't. And and so doing that first exhibition with Olivia and I sold half my work.

And I was like, Oh, wow. That's great. That's so good. And so I kept going, kept working, and then I was approached by JKW Interiors to to do the installation for Sylvia Park, where I did three walls of like a concrete tile relief. 

Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. 

And so I'd cut down, I cut down to three days a week landscaping and it was very sensible.

And I wasn't drinking or anything, so I I managed to save like a bit of money and and from just working, and then I was like, okay, I'm going to do it. And so I jumped and and started doing it full time. 

Really? What year was that? 

That would have been 2019. 

Wow. Yeah. So good. And just jumping off the cliff, but you must have just felt like it was the right time.

I knew that it's really hard to find landscapers. 'cause no one wants to do it 'cause it's really hard work, . And so I knew that. No, I was like, what's the risk? I can always go, I can always landscape again. Yeah. Like there was no, and I was just working out of a double garage. I did around the same time, like my friend Simon Lewis Wards was his practice expanded and he'd moved into like a.

A proper warehouse space. And so I went and worked, I worked out of his place for a little bit. And when I was making my first rubber molds he was like, Oh, before you put concrete in those, why don't you put some wax in them and I'll show you how to cast glass. And I was like, okay, then and so yeah, like I cast a few pieces and then.

I found it like, it's very, glass is very hard. It's very, there's a lot more steps than concrete. And and so I did that and people liked them, they sold and then people asked for more. And I kept doing little runs of glass here and there, as well as the concrete and Everything just really kept evolving.

Yeah. And then you tried bronze. 

Yeah. Yeah. Once you're making waxes, for glass, it's 

you might as well fill it was like 

you can just take that to the foundry. Yeah. And. And I really liked that because I didn't have to do it. Because I've always, I always, I do everything myself, like everything that I make, like I touch it from concept to packing it and sending it, for anyone who's bought my work it's 100 percent me except for the bronze and aluminum which I Which is done at a foundry and, but I do the patinas myself, like I've learned how to do that as well.

That's amazing. And can you describe those works? I mean there are different series aren't there of the same sort of idea. But can you describe for someone who's never seen your work, what it's like? That's a big question. 

It is a very big question and I always struggle with with explaining my art.

I feel like this podcast and the whole story of it's like, how do you condense your whole life into this is what my art is. Yeah, 

exactly. 

But yeah, I do a sort of variation of stuff. I in lockdown, I started, I took, basically took my paintings and I extruded them. I pulled them out and that was actually how I worked out how to do three dimensional, how to do sculpture.

I took sculpture in seventh form and I failed because I didn't know what to make. I didn't have any idea of forms. I thought of sculpture is like people finding junk from the tip and welding it together or tying it together or something, yeah But yeah, so 

I'm sculpture was just another way for you to communicate and to Keep evolving those designs that you really had a long time ago 

Yeah.

Yeah. So I so basically I started by, I did the cubes, which had the lettering, which was like the abstract sort of my four letters of my name around a cube which was convenient that four sided. And then so then I started doing the paintings and I just started pulling them out into three dimensional objects because I'd always thought Although I hadn't drawn them in 3D, whenever I was layering up the paint and the colors, I always thought of them as 3D layers that interlocked and interwove.

So it was just, I just started pulling them out and it was like I was, three dimensional objects were so much easier when I was like breaking them down into slices. 

Yeah, I can see that. 

And And so I did that and then I think like doing the vents and then I started paying so much more.

I'd always loved architecture, but I'd started paying I think like also with the introduction of Instagram and there were like all these like brutalist accounts and it was like I could just, I started absorbing like every, like I discovered Carlos Scarpa. And Cabourcier and like so many amazing architects and and started taking little bits of what they'd done and applying it and and then I listened to a a talk on YouTube with the sculptor, I forget his name, talking about sculptures with holes in them.

It was just a whole talk about holes and sculptures and everything that I'd been doing was very solid and and I hadn't really cut into it. Like I did the After the solves, which solve is it was my solution to the problem, which is art. So I called it a solve. 

And that's a whole series, a whole big collection, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. Like it's just a solve. I just thought it was a good thing to name a design. So yeah. And then, so yeah, then I started really cutting into things and cutting right through them. And because the problem with concrete is the bigger I went, the heavier it got. And because it was so solid.

And then I was like, okay, so I started cutting into it and then that made it lighter, but it also made it weaker. So then I started adding in little pieces of supports and started thinking about how I could strengthen. And putting and they created all this interest and all this and which is and it was the essence of brutalism because, brutalism is a building.

Like people often don't know what the meaning of brutalism is. Like they think that it's like anything that's concrete. 

Yeah. 

That's blocky. And but it actually means a building that you has no facade that you can see the structure and the strength. And so then I was like, I at some something clicked and I was like, Oh wow.

I just worked it out. 

Yeah, it makes sense for your work, doesn't it? And so those holes, creating that negative space within your sculptures, are they, is that done afterwards? That's not part of the mould? 

Oh no, that's all moulded in. That's part of the mould. That's what I love about sculpture and casting.

I'm not a, I don't carve, I don't sculpt. You know so much it's like everything is cast And I love the fact that You cast something and you take it out of the mold and it's finished Like I mean you might patina it or tidy it up, but there's no you could paint it or you do anything But I just like the fact that's it.

You keep it quite raw, don't you? Yeah, 

and because I'll otherwise I'll never know when to stop. Yeah, and Yeah. And so I don't know. And I was like, I don't know. And then I I'd seen like a lot of Guy Nahon's work around like the, on the, that I always loved the sculpture on the front of art space, which was the post office.

And yeah. And like I said, like the Aotea Square monument, 

it's so interesting that your sculptures. have so much reference to the urban environment, which is where you've grown up. And, just with things like kind of stair forms and spaces, like almost like corridors or spaces between buildings, or it just feels to me so much a sort of product of the life that you've led.

Yeah. 

Which is incredible to have that in a way. Is that how you see it? Yeah. 

Yeah, totally. I originally, for years, like from, 15 years ago or something, I, or longer, I had wanted to build sculptures mainly for the intention that they would be used for skateboarding. And then I helped build a skate park in Awaraka and just working, laboring, like in 2008.

And And I just I got really put off by the politics of the skate park building industry. And also the way that skaters respond to the production of skate parks and art within skate parks, Oh, why did you spend money doing art? You should have built a handrail and a, some stairs and a bowl or, and one person wants a ball, one person wants, And so I, it put me off it was like, I don't want to be, I don't want people to be complaining that money funding was wasted on art, rather than the skate parks because so little had been put into it.

But but yeah, so I know it was nice to free myself from that as well. And just make things that didn't have to be skatable. 

That wasn't part of the consideration. 

But I still imagine them big. I like my tiles, which I came up with in lockdown when I had a lot of time on my hands.

And I started making tiles and putting them up around the streets and, but when I'd look at the tile, like it looked like a tiny little landscape. And or a little skate park or, and so I started thinking and so even all my sculptures, I imagined and when I do something, the more I started thinking of them in architectural forms and each piece that comes out, outcrop is like a veranda or yeah, 

I know what you mean.

You can totally see that. 

And 

yeah, those tiles are very cool. And I love the that one there where you'd you're combining shapes across a long length, across a wall. 

Yeah. Those were actually the outlines of, that I did on the wall in Dunedin in the river. So those are all outlines that, because it got destroyed, I thought it was fitting that I redid them in concrete so that they would, 

And how do you do those tiles?

Is that one big mold or is it lots of pieces stuck together? 

The Sylvia Park one? Oh no that's all poured in one go. That was massive. We had to get I had to get help like getting the, these big MDF molds that were like, monstrosities. 

Do you use CNC cutting to get the molds made?

I, when I go, if I'm going big like when, like I've done three big plywood sculptures and I have to work out, break it all down into panels and then I'll get them CNC cut because it's It makes sense. It makes sense and it's really nice when everything just fits together.

Yeah, it's perfect. And you 

do that on the, do you draw on the computer or hand? 

Yeah, I, because I learned Illustrator through designing graphics and stuff for skateboards, skateboard graphics and and all that. I have carried that over. So I have used that in my. Doing drawings for paintings and and stuff.

And and then I, when I first started doing the concrete, I wasn't using any 3d programs, I was just making cardboard models and imagining the molds backwards, like imagining things. You'd have to do it all backwards. Yeah. Yeah. I did that like even for the Brutal Monuments series and the solves were all done without any 3D programs.

And then I, when I started doing the the false idols, which is when I really started cutting into things also on the false idols, I removed any curves because it was mostly because I didn't really know how to do them and sketch up. So is that thing again, like the 

simplifying 

and then you simplify and then you make it more complicated.

So yeah, I've been using SketchUp for quite a, like for a few years now. And that is just I'd love I'd love to spend a lot more time on it. And. learn, but it's very hard because you use it and then I go and make stuff physically and then go back to it and it's, it can be hard to remember it because you're not using it over and over again.

But 

And those false idols, with those spaces and just the different shapes within those sculptures are it's such a lovely play with light and shadow and negative space and all those beautiful things. And that, I just love that the solidness of the concrete and then how that can work with the gentleness of light.

Yeah. It's such a lovely combination. And they're so unique. 

It's been a very fine line because I guess, because growing up in New Zealand, I've always had Maori art. And, and stuff there, which we were, brought up on. But because I'm not Māori, I have found that it's not been something that I can do.

And And I've loved, and I've always loved like Aztec art. And and I always used to look through books of that stuff. And when I was coming up with designs for graphics and and all sorts of cultural art, and I think and I feel like there's so many parallels between all the different sorts, like it's all connected by one thing, which is that we are all one culture, really.

With the human race, yeah one 

species. 

Yeah, and and part of the false idols thing was my uncle wanted me to design a headstone for my grandparents grave and They're Catholic. So I was working on crucifixes and stuff And sort of brutalist and I was looking at like brutalist churches and things overseas and But it also made me think what do you have as your headstone if you're not religious?

And so I the idols were really ideas for gods or powers that don't exist and like a a tribute to them or like a, yeah and it allowed me to bring Figures and some of them look like infrastructure and some of them look, have more like sort of human forms.

Yes, yeah. I always refer to parts of them as being collarbones or necks or, yeah, 

they definitely do feel some of them do feel like, Idols or like actual heads or bodies or parts of bodies, but also back to that helmet idea. 

The helmet as well and and yeah, I've got a new one that's actually got three vents in the front of it, which is the same.

It's my aero helmet that I wear for Downhill has the three. And so I wanted to. To reference that. 

And you do play with scale. You have made some quite large sculptures and some of them out of wood for places like the Kaipara Sculpture Gardens and different sculpture shows. And then you've also done really quite small cubes and other amazing things which look incredible.

I love that photo in your Instagram where somebody's bought one of the small cubes and they've put it with. Work that looks almost antique. Yeah. On a sort of quite an antique y looking table side like hall table and it's just it's so minimal and hard and Modern, but then it just goes so beautifully with something that's actually really old as well So it's like you're you've created something that still works with all sorts of different art movements.

And I love the way that you have those small pieces, but then you also work really quite large. Where do you think you're going to go with scale? 

The goal has always been to go big and, but it's it's quite, you're just limited by I find it hard to let go of the making. And so I'm not an artist who will like, get people to fabricate things for me.

But I would like to work. I've always I work alone, like a lot. And even when I was doing graffiti, I, a lot of the time I ended up alone, like working alone. And so yeah, I, it's always, I always get stoked when I get to work with other people and I I feel like I'm still learning.

Yeah. To do that. But yeah, cause I'd love to make Corten steel or like steel works and, or powder coated steel. The plywood sculptures are just really, they were like my, I didn't know how to go big. So I was like I'm just going to make these big plywood sculptures. They won't last, but at least people can see what my stuff looks like at that scale.

Yeah. 

And you can play with scale without the big expense. 

Yeah, totally. And the projects that came up weren't permanent projects. And I figure, I just figured that the more that people see my work in that size, the more they're going to be They're going to come to me and want to build big ones and that will give me the opportunity to work with engineers and construction and stuff.

City planners, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, I just, like I said, I don't, I've never had a plan. So I just keep doing what I love and what I want to do. next rather than, yeah, and eliminate things that I don't want to do. 

Yeah. And sometimes that's trial and error, isn't it? Sometimes you might try something and you think, actually, that's not what I want to do.

It's not 

what I perceive, what I, cause you imagine things in your head and you think, it's like people imagine Oh yeah, I want to have a house in the country and I want to have all the stuff and then animals and then they end up by themselves in the country and they've got no friends and 

they miss the city and they 

hate having to clean up animal shit.

It's like you, you don't know what you want. You have an idea and you had a romantic idea of what you think you want in the future. Yeah, and that often gets crushed. 

Yeah, and it feels like you are quite experimental with materials. As you said, you want to try materials that you haven't touched on yet.

And I guess if you're going big You could work in parts and assemble, couldn't you? 

Yeah, it's and that's what I do really enjoy, problem solving. Like I just did two stacks of cubes for for the Riverhaven Sculpture Gardens in Clevedon. And, Guy and Kate, Katie came to me and said, we've got these big concrete pillars on these, It's like some weird leftover infrastructure from a motorway or something.

And they were like, we want, can we put, build some concrete around these pillars? And so I just come up with a way that we could do it. That wasn't going to, because with concrete, like the weight of pouring concrete is just, it just needs so much bracing and there's so much. so much. cost and potential for error.

And so I came up with the idea to do them in GRC concrete so that they'd just be like a shell. And because I'd done stacks of cubes, like for a few customers. And and yeah, so we built those and Yeah, I'm I'm enjoying problem solving to put art in a place and like filling a brief which in the past briefs have always been problematic for me.

It's interesting, isn't it? 

Yeah, I think I've just gotten better at what I do and more comfortable in what I do. I know. I feel like I've arrived a lot more I think when I, when, like I said, like that first exhibition of sculptures and selling a whole bunch of stuff, it was like, Oh, I'm here.

Yeah. This is what I'm going to do now. 

Yeah. And isn't that cool that, when you think about that moment where you think, yes, I'm ready, this is affirming. I'm ready to go compared to. You were 48 percent at school, where you felt good about what you were doing and then you had that rejection.

And it's you've just, evolved into creating something that's so successful where you feel you've found your place. You found your art form. 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's it's, yeah it's, I feel like I'm really lucky I just feel like I'm really lucky to be. To have made it here because, a lot of me and my friends who like, who now are doing well in art were the ones that everyone thought would be dead by the time we were 30, 

yeah, exactly. It's but you are amazing. The skating that you do is so amazing. Freaky to watch. You've just got this love of speed obviously. 

Yeah. 

And you enjoy taking risks to a point. 

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's, yeah, it's all, it all feels connected. No, it's just the way that you skate down a hill, the way you traverse down a slope is the same way that water flows down a sculpture, it finds The easiest way yeah, and and that's something else that I really loved when I started making making sculptures and then leaving them outside in the rain and watching the way that the water flowed down them and Yes, I'm still I haven't done a water feature yet, but I've done 

Played around a little bit with 

some smaller markets of water features and because it is.

And then I was like, Oh wow, gravity, like skateboarding, downhills, gravity water flowing down sculptures, gravity, like it, I just, every time I find another connection, like even like I found when I started making molds and stuff, I was like working with plywood, urethane. Concrete and then aluminium and I was like, oh, what's my skateboard made out of and what do I ride on?

It was like plywood urethane 

Yeah, like so many connections. Yeah, it's quite incredible Yeah, and you are you planning on skating for as long as you possibly can? 

Yeah, I'll always skate at some level and I'm already I already don't You Spend as much time at skate parks trying to do tricks over and over again, and like my joints are just Don't they're not fast enough.

That's why I love downhill because It's more like, less like jumping off 50 million times trying a trick, and more 

like 

flowing down a hill and listening to music and, 

but you're a bit, you must just have, I've watched a few of the videos, like you going down Ruapehu. Recent.

That was quite recent, wasn't it? 

Oh yeah, we did a, we revisited Rupe who this year. 

And that's just, you must just have the most incredible sense of balance. 

Yeah. I don't think you have any choice. It's like when there is no try, you either do or you don't, and I think for someone who has bad attention, like a DD or, when you're in that situation, you concentrate because you're totally focused. And in that focus, you also stop thinking, the internal dialogue stops and you're meditating. I've tried to meditate and I cannot, and they're like empty your mind and I'm like, whatever like, oh, how should I empty my mind?

I could do it this way or I could do it that way or what about, oh, look at that tree out there. Yeah, 

I guess that's in a way Your sort of mindful meditation is when you're going down those hills. 

Yeah. Yeah, and I think also like after becoming Famous or whatever for being a meme. I found it increasingly harder to find that meditation at a skate park or when I'm surrounded by kids who asking you questions and and I think, and after teaching kids to skateboard and, like just being able to Yeah, just escape all that.

And, and a lot of it's like being alone in the city and, and I've, I went to, I've been going to San Francisco or California and mostly San Francisco cause I just love it. I love, I've always loved the buildings there and the houses and the hills and Yeah. So it's, I just go there and it's I'm just alone in the streets with all the buildings and it's great.

And do you feel like that when you're making art? 

Yeah. Yeah, I do. And and yeah, I work alone in my warehouse. I've got like a warehouse now, a warehouse studio, and I'm like there in this big space by myself with the 

dog, like 

every day and I think, Oh, maybe I should like.

Rent out this bit there or and I'm like, oh, but that might kill my buzz . Yeah, exactly. . 

Oh, it's so good. It's amazing. You are such an inspiration. I really just have so much respect for what you've been through and where you've got to. It's incredible. Yeah. 

Thank you. I, 

and how do you find the commercial world of art and working with galleries and that kind of thing now?

It's cool. Like I when I first, after I did my first show and I did like my first sort of small sculptures and stuff, I approached a few galleries, I made up like a PDF and didn't really get either, didn't get a response or they weren't interested. And and I felt like there was a bit of Oh, the Nick Minute guy thinks he's a, he's an artist now.

As if I'd like just suddenly decided I was going to be an artist. Like I hadn't been doing it my whole life. And so that was, it was interesting. But then the beautiful thing was that through Instagram and like just posting photos of my work, I started especially before the algorithms got really bad I started getting followers and and then, and then a gallery like, Framework Shop in Herne Bay approached me and and then Simon spoke to a few galleries Z the Gallery and Taupo and and they commissioned a few concrete planters and 

you were with Muse Art Gallery now as well?

Yeah, Muse, Stephen Robinson put me on to Kay and yeah, they, they got a whole bunch of idols and they moved and that was great and 

And you've shown in Sydney, haven't you? 

Yeah, so Becca Minty Mr. Minty's gallery approached me and And yeah, I've been selling a bit of stuff there.

Still trying to find somewhere in Melbourne. I find it I spent so much time in Melbourne. I find it interesting that I haven't found a place yet. 

I'm sure you will though. 

I'm sure. There's actually the front room gallery in Melbourne. So my the wooden additions like that's the other thing that happened was before all these, before I've been recognized by New Zealand galleries through the internet, like a modern shapes gallery started following me and from Belgium.

And Michael, when I posted the first photo of the false idol, he like messaged me and said, I love these. I want to speak to you about a project that we're doing. And and then he told me about the wooden additions that they were doing, it's like selling prints. But sculptures.

And and I'd actually, because I'd seen like the plastic toys the beer bricks and the cause dolls and stuff. And I thought, wow, like my sculptures would be really cool in that format. Because especially the idols, like they like figures and and, but I was like, Ooh, plastic.

And then, and so I was but I'd put that in my head, like that I wanted to make like toys or additions. And then it was so crazy that, and then he came back to me and said, the project's like doing, we want to do wooden additions of your work. And with alongside David Umimoto, who's like the master and and a handful of other like really cool sculptors.

And it's I just modern shapes gallery is great because they are one of the few galleries that just really specialize in modern sculpture. And so I was completely honored. And so yeah, so front room gallery in Melbourne is selling they ordered a bunch of my sculptures and and so they've been at the They sell them at the art fairs, like Maison and Objet in Paris.

Wow. And, so yeah, it's I love going through the list and seeing, Is it Casino? Casino furniture, and Japan ordered some of my stuff, and like it's just amazing that because logistically trying to send concrete and heavy sculptures from New Zealand. We're so far away.

It's it's just so cool that my works selling overseas. So I really hope that I really want to keep expanding outwards. And when I do my trips to San Fran, last trip I went to San Francisco, I put up some tiles around the place and some of my favorite brutalist skate spots. And now I see videos on Instagram of people skating at the spot and I can see my tile in the background of the shot.

Which really harps back to the graffiti days, isn't it? Where you're leaving your mark. 

Yeah, it's 

which is very cool 

the idea the idea was always like I wanted when I started doing the graffiti and changing it To my own style, which was not was more modern and more architectural When I did the tiles it was like, oh wow, these are like little tags.

But You They're disguised. And so it's 

They're more accepted because they're not spray paint. 

Yeah, and to me it's a natural, it's a natural thing. Like how a creature evolves spikes or, to survive. And so they start, like a chameleon will, Camouflage itself. So it felt like the tiles were camouflaged as little baby architecture and 

and more acceptable from, civilians possibly.

Yeah, totally. And then these sort of, and I love everything I've done and anytime you do public art, it's interactive, like people interact with it, even when you go to a gallery by looking at something you're interacting with it. And with the tiles, it was like people were interacting with it and then someone would tag over the tile or next to it and they'd come and paint the wall and they'd paint over the wall and my tile.

So then the tile had been accepted, like where it had been, it had become part of the wall Yeah. Part of the building. Yeah. And and it hid it more. And so yeah, it's and I put up. Some tiles in San Francisco, like almost a year ago, and they're all still there because no one even over there knows what they are or, and because I often put them in spots where they look like they're a logo for utilities or ornamentation that They just, they survive, except for when people work out what they are and that they maybe are worth something, then they're getting removed.

But even when they get, even when people steal them, they go on a new journey and then they go in someone's house and then that person tells a story about the tile and, 

The artwork lives on. Do you have any sort of identifying features so that people can track you down and find the artist? 

No, but no, I don't.

Might be good to do that. Yeah. It's, but it's sometimes the fun is that, like I had a guy from San Francisco tracked me down just recently who just put the image into Google search and it came up on Reddit. 

Really? 

And so he found me through there and then messaged me and he's like on the the modern architectural protection trust or something like this group in San Francisco.

And so now he started following me and So it's just amazing like the, Hey it's really great to approach a gallery and ask them to to stock your work. But to me to go somewhere and put something up and for them to get the joy of finding you. 

Yeah. And for people to engage.

Yeah. 

On that level and making it quite accessible. 

Yeah. Yeah, totally. And there's no. I don't know. It's like deciphering a hieroglyph or, yeah. 

Yeah. I love that. And when you think about, what you've been talking about, it is also beautifully connected and intertwined.

And, when you look back on your life, you must, it must be a buzz for you to see all these connections and how they've, it's almost being it's like your art practice now is a culmination. That of so many different aspects of your life, the skating and the graffiti and everything.

And I feel like this is the beginning of you're already on that road of huge success. 

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I hope so. It would, at the moment, like obviously everyone's been the purse strings are tight and it's been a big recession and and at the moment, it's everyone seems to be treading water and I took a lease on a warehouse, at the start of this sort of crash.

And but I'm just stoked that I've still been actually selling enough and, and still growing and probably selling more than, selling more than I've ever sold. Definitely doubled and but with more overheads, but I just, every day that I go to that space and, and for someone who's worked out of, painting three meter wide paintings and a one meter gap at the end of my double bed in my bedroom To working, like my first sculptures were made in a carport with no, no, no sides or, no walls.

Yeah. Like to actually have like a warehouse space now and be able to just, anything I want to do, I can do and I, and I can You can get something out and work on it and you don't have to put it away and tidy up to get out the next thing and set it up and yeah, you know you can actually work on a few things at once and also like I've got my I've got a gallery space in there which like, like a sort of showroom 

And people can come and visit by appointment 

yeah totally it's it's become a lot more of a workspace at the moment, just through winter and just, and like I said, how quiet things have been.

But but I'm, I've got a whole lot of works that I've been working on for a bit now that are a bit more technical and elaborates. That's been the great thing about. things being a little bit quiet as it's given me a lot more time to experiment and I've bought my own kiln and so I'm starting to make larger glassworks and oh man, glass.

It's so problematic, isn't it? Potentially. Oh yeah. And it's I just and, I knew from the start, I was like, no, I don't want to get into glass. I just want to make concrete. Do you 

think you'll keep going with the glass? 

Oh no, absolutely.

Absolutely. I think I've, I think I'm through, I'm not through the worst of it, but I've, I think getting through like the first bit is the hardest and even just going from making glass pieces that are under two kgs to doing my new ones that are over five kgs. And, like in speaking, like there's been so many people who have helped me like, like Simon Simon Wards, Kate Rutecki, Luke Jacob, Matt Hall Di Toker, like I've been hassling her and Leila Walters.

And it's been super cool. They've all been like very helpful, 

that's great. 

Sometimes, people are a little bit guarded with some stuff and like you have to 

squeeze it out of them. Yeah. 

Yeah. And it's and I think I used to look at glass and just see the form and if it was quite simple, I'd be like, eh, it's a bit boring or whatever.

But now when I see glass and I see how much goes into it 

and how 

much. work, like when I see something that's really quite perfect and it doesn't have many air bubbles or, or the fade of the the glass colors, like when there's a mixture and, like it's really quite admirable.

Yeah. Now you understand the process, you have more respect for the artist, 

yeah, absolutely. And I have more appreciation for the simplicity of it. And I think that my younger self probably wouldn't have listened to any old person. But then I thought, what I would have told myself is to learn more trades, learn more like about do instead of doing tech drawing and stuff, do middle work, do woodwork, do learn to use machines, learn to learn physical.

Processes and stuff. Don't waste your time. Working jobs where you're washing dishes and stuff. Yeah. Although that does teach you things, but life skills. I just think that there's so much I, I wish I knew more about metal and welding and, I've done like a, I've had a little session welding and.

I wish I had learnt more about it earlier. 

But you still can learn now, oh yeah, totally. But it's just tapping into the artist community, isn't it? And learning new things, which does take time. 

It does take time, and I think the, after having a small sample of welding, I just, I feel like you need a sort of partially outdoor space, and, because it's going to get messy.

Like it's, you're going to be grinding dirty metal and 

with fiery things. 

Yeah. Fiery things and breathing things in and then you've got to protect your eyes. And that's a whole other 

thing, isn't it? In a way. 

Yeah, absolutely. 

So what would you find is the most challenging part of being an artist? 

Surviving.

Surviving and and having, being able to do it full time. And, but I think, but I also think that it's not about having a space, and it's not about having the time. You can have two full time jobs, or a full time job and a massive hobby, and And paint in the, in your bedroom where you can it's just doing it, and, but at the same time, I think going full time because I don't know of any artists I do know of artists that haven't made it, but a lot of people have found that when they went full time with their art. Every time it'd be like you'd run out of money and then something would come up or, like something came through or you can have a part time job or, 

sometimes when you jump off the cliff that, and really immerse yourself in something that is when stuff can happen because you're creating space for it.

Yeah. 

Yeah. You you have to often close one door for it, for a door to open. 

Yeah, I think so. 

But yeah, it's But it is very hard, like it is very hard supporting yourself. And especially I think now more than ever. And I also do feel like there's a lot of art out there it's a lot easier for people to produce art.

We've got so much, so many machines and so many techniques and things where people can sit at a computer and make art and with 3d printing and Yeah, which is awesome. And now you've got like digital art as well. But don't worry, AI is going to take all that out.

So 

that's a whole 

other podcast. Yeah. And I think we all know the answer to this, but why are you making the kind of work you're making? 

Because I love it. I love the way it looks. I love the, yeah, I love the way your mind plays with it. 

It really feels like you're expressing your identity through your work so much.

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah I just feel like I'm a blockhead, I'm a brutal, I'm a brutal piece of architecture. You're 

a brute. Such a brute. Yeah. And which artists inspire you or inform you in some way? 

There's been a huge amount of artists that have done that.

But in sort of recent years, I think yeah, like murder from Melbourne, M-E-R-D-A and there was puzzle and and a whole lot of, a whole lot of like graffiti artists and then, but then Mc Escher, like from back in the day and, german expressionists like Franz Mark and August Mackey, and Kandinsky, and I was really, yeah, I was really big into that.

And then, yeah, just a lot of the brutalists and the Spominek Bogdan, Bogdanovich, that's the hardest thing about that I'm finding I know, like the names of like a million skateboarders. And then now I know like the names of all these downhill skateboarders.

And now it's I know the names of all these artists and then. All these architects and then, and I'm trying to remember all the names of all these New Zealand artists. I keep meeting people and I get, it's and then gallerists and it's overload, it is overload. And I don't have the best memory.

Because I just feel like I'm always off thinking about all these other things. And are you actually, do you actually have ADHD diagnosed? I've never been diagnosed, but I don't think I would have made it through high school if I wasn't skateboarding. 

Like 

I think I would have probably ended up in trouble.

It helped me concentrate. 

Yeah. And 

and also I just think And all along the way, like, when I was brought into Boom to design and stuff people have helped me so much all the way through. I think they they see it in me that that I struggle with some things and they tend to help me.

And, and, like Shea O'Neill has been like a big help for me and getting my works bigger and sculpture parks and at festivals and, So yeah, like I, I'll take this opportunity to thank like all the people who've helped me throughout the years when they see, they see my potential, but they see my sort of things that I struggle with.

Yeah. Oh, that's such a beautiful thing to say. And I'm sure that a part of that is the person who you are. And that is why people are wanting to support you and help you, so you can take some credit for that too. Thanks. Okay, let's wrap up. You have got the record for the longest episode on the creative matters podcast.

Yahoo. So Levi, thank you very much. It's been such a thrill to meet you. It really has. It's so fascinating to hear your story and how you've evolved. And yeah, it's a beautiful story. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. 

Oh, thanks so much for having me. I've, I love your questions and. It's been very easy and I hope that it keeps going well and yeah, give Mandy lots of funding. .